The POPE on ISLAM, EUROPE, and the FUTURE

Father Joseph Fessio, a student and friend of Pope Benedict XVI, on the problems Christianity, especially in Europe, faces with the spread of Islam

HH: Special hour now, as I'm joined by Father Joseph D. Fessio, who is the Provost of Ave Maria University in Naples, Florida, also the founder of the publisher Ignatius Press. He's a Jesuit. He's also a student and a friend of Benedict XVI, and a second time on the program. Father Fessio, welcome back to the Hugh Hewitt Show.

JF: Good to be back, Hugh. Good talking to you.

HH: Great to have you. I wanted to talk to you today, because Mark Steyn, a tremendous writer, wrote a piece yesterday on the loss of the West, because of depopulation, and because of a lack of seriousness. And I believe that this has been a theme in your teacher, Benedict XVI's first nine months as Pope. Am I right about that?

JF: Absolutely right, Hugh.

HH: Explain what the Pope has been saying since he buttumed the throne of St. Peter.

JF: Well first of all, the very first thing you said was a 22 minute talk in Latin on April 20th, which is amazing he did that, just in the evening. But he's been clear what his papacy is supposed to do. And number one was fidelity to Jesus Christ, that we must serve Jesus. He's our Lord. He's our master. Everything else is secondary, which was beautiful for him to say that. Secondly, he wanted to work on conjunction with, with the prayers and support of all his fellow bishops and cardinals. Thirdly, that he wanted to help the Catholic Church go into the future by understanding properly the II Vatican Council, which was all the bishops in the world getting together to try and chart a course. But then, when he came to the content, he said the very first thing we have to do, and make sure we do well, is to praise and worship and adore the Lord in a proper way. If we do that, then everything else will follow from that. You know, our work with the poor, our evangelization, our attempt to find greater unity with our fellow Christians. All that, but it's going to flow from our fidelity to worshipping the Lord properly. So that's his plan. But he took the name Benedict. And you know, Benedict was really the father of Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. It was the Benedictine monasteries that had given themselves entirely to meditation, prayer, service to the Lord, reading His word, contemplating it, and offering him proper sacrifice. This was what actually formed Christendom in Europe. And I think he's hoping to have a renewal of that spirit.

HH: And what would that look like, as you understand what he's talking about, Father Fessio?

JF: Well, I have to say two things. First of all, we know what the first Europe looked like. I mean, that's where we all, most of us come from in our culture, and even our religious background. But unlike John Paul II, who spoke of a new springtime, and a new evangelization, and seemed to talk sometimes as if there was going to be a tremendous transformation of the world, including Europe, Benedict XVI, even before he was Pope, has talked about the remnant, the fact that we as Christians, if we are truly faithful to Christ and His word, we're going to be a minority, and a minority which is becoming more and more marginalized, and even oppressed. So I don't think, I don't think Benedict XVI is thinking that we're going to have a new Christendom, in which Christian principles permeate all of society. I think he probably is more, his vision is that we must be faithful to Christ, and He will support us and strengthen us, and we can't predict what our role will be in society. But it's probably going to be as a minority.

HH: Oh, that's very interesting. In this Steyn column, he pointed out that the reproduction rate in Spain, a very Catholic country, is at 1.2, that every generation, half of Spain is gone, not necessarily in whole terms, because they have inward immigration, mostly from North Africa. But I thought Benedict would address himself to this depopulation of Europe. But you're suggesting perhaps not.

JF: Well, I mean, he'll address himself to it in the sense that if Christians take seriously the word of God, both in the Gospels and in Genesis, they're going to be fruitful and multiply. As you say, that kind of a reproduction rate is not going to work. In fact, this year, well, last year, actually. 2005, there were more Muslims born in France than people of traditional French background. Within four years, the top four cities in Holland will be...most populous cities, will have a Muslim majority. I mean, if we look at the demographics, which can change, but they change slowly, I don't see any other issue for Europe, or any result, than looking like North Africa, you know? Algeria, Morocco, Libya, Egypt, I mean, they were all Christian, thriving Christian communities, you know, in the early Church. And now, you can't profess your faith there. You can't bring a Bible in some of those countries.

HH: That's actually what Mark Steyn was arguing as well. Let me pivot for a second, Father Fessio, to a story that came out today. The spiritual leader of the 200 million plus orthodox Christians said Thursday that he is eager to meet with Pope Benedict XVI, sometime in the coming year. Bartholomew I told he was looking forward to healing the long-standing rift between Rome and the orthodox Churches. Is it necessary for Christendom, in all of its various manifestations to sort of rally together, as opposed to continually divide?

JF: Well, that's what Jesus wants, you know? He prays we'll all be one, as He and the Father are one. Well, we're not very near that now. But at least we can respect each other and have good arguments with each other, and try and come to the same unity of love and faithfulness to Christ. That's important. But of course, the orthodox Churches is a whole story in itself. There's 14 Patriarchates. They've been trying to have a pan-orthodox synod for more than forty years. They can't get the 14 Patriarchates together, you know, much less have a union with Rome, or with all of Christianity.

HH: What about Rome's reach to its Lefevre-ites schismatics?

JF: Well, there's a broad canvas here you're jumping to.

HH: I know. I'm just trying to get my arms around...first, you've got to have defensible lines, and then you've got to worry about the rest of Europe.

JF: Yeah. Well, I mean, the one good thing about this is that I do think the thing being the incursion of Islam...and look, let's face it. Muslims, many of them, perhaps a majority of them are serious about their faith. They're devout. But they have a religion whose principle is based on God's word, not in the words of men, but God's word delivered directly to Mohammed, which can't be interpreted, can't be changed, can't be adapted. And that word is to conquer the word, or render everyone subject to the one true religion, which is Islam. I mean, it is not a religion of stasis or peace. It's a religion of evangelization...or that's not a good word, because that's a Gospel word. But I mean it's a religion of missionary conversions.

HH: Father Fessio, now I have Muslim friends who will argue that that's not what Jihad means. How do you respond to them?

JF: Well, your Muslim friends are wrong, because Jihad can be largely interpreted to be a spiritual struggle. But the text themselves talk explicitly about the extension of Islam to all peoples, and they allowed either to accept, or if they reject it, they have to be...pay a tax, you know, and you become dimis, or second clbutt citizens, or subject citizens to Islam. Actually, it's interesting. I was in Rome, actually Castel Gandolfo, the Pope's summer residence, in September of 2005. His former students met with him, and the topic of our meeting was the Islamic concept of God, and its consequences for a secular society. And we had two people there who gave talks, one of them extraordinary, a man named Kalil Safir Kalil(?), who is an Egyptian born Coptic Catholic, Lebanese Jesuit priest who runs an Islamic-Christian center in Lebanon, and he's got a book called Ciento Domande Su Islam, 100 Questions On Islam. He knows it inside and out. And he quotes key Islamic leaders saying the following: Because of your religious tolerance in Europe, we will overtake you. We will be coming into Europe. Because of our religious beliefs, we will conquer you. I mean, there should be no doubt about it. They're intent, and I don't blame them for this. They believe they got the true religion. They are going to overcome here. They've been trying to do it for...since the 600's.

HH: 600's, yeah. Father Fessio, stay with us. I'm so glad we have this time today, and...

JF: I'm sorry my answers are so long. I'm sorry about that.

HH: Oh no, they've got to be. It's a hard problem. Part of the problem of the West is every answer has to be short.

JF: That's true.

HH: Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz was my guest once, and he said the trouble with the West is all it wants is a good five cent religion. And he was right.

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HH: Father Fessio, before we went to break, you mentioned that in September, a group of the Pope's former students, or continuing to be students, gathered at Castel Gandolfo. Was Benedict XVI with you?

JF: Yes, he was.

HH: How's he doing, physically, etc?

JF: You know, Hugh, I have to say, I've seen him every year now, since 1972. And he's always been very calm and very peaceful. But he looked radiant. I mean, he looked younger. I mean, he was...I think this is God's call for him. I really do.

HH: Now on December 30th, in the Los Angeles Times, George Weigel, whose a very, very reputable friend of the Church, and biographer of both John Paul II and Benedict XVI, wrote kind of a testy column about Benedict, at his pace of reform of the Curia and other things. Did you happen to see that?

JF: I did not, no. I'll take a look at it. I'll look for it now, though.

HH: Yeah, he wants him to hurry up, and especially in the question of the appointment of bishops. Do you sense he's moving deliberately?

JF: Yes, you know, he's a man of deep, deep personal devotion to our Lord, and loves the Church. And even though his ideas are clear, and his committment to the Christian faith is completely solid, he is very gentle, and he doesn't want to harm people. He doesn't want to upset people. He wants to talk to them, and listen, and get input. He doesn't act quickly. But he's already making changes here and there. I mean, I think...I'm not disappointed at all.

HH: All right.

JF: We're Americans, Hugh. We like to fix something right now.

HH: Oh, you bet. Yesterday wouldn't be too soon. Let's go back to this meeting, because I'm fascinated by this. And to the extent that you can, obviously, without violating confidence, who was there? And how did it unfold? And what was the idea behind it?

JF: Well, Joseph Ratzinger as professor was very, very popular, and had many, many graduate students. And as part of the graduate program, you'd have these seminars called Hauptseminare, major seminars, or Proseminaren, and there'd be eight or ten or twelve of us graduate students with Cardinal Ratzinger. Then, he was Father Ratzinger leading it. And they were so rich, so fruitful, that when he became archbishop of Munich in 1977, the students decided that they would want to try and continue some kind of regular meeting to discuss theological issues. And he was very happy to do that. So from that point on, every year, we have met for a weekend, usually at a monastery. We'll pray together, we'll read scripture together, we'll do fellowship together, we will study together, we will eat together, and have a couple of presentations from scholars on a particular topic, and we'll discuss it. They've always been very, very enriching and very beautiful. And so, we had planned last year, in 2004, that in 2005, we would discuss Islam. And it was all agreed upon. We had two people picked out to come. When he was elected Pope, we figured well, it's going to be all off now. But he said no, no. He said I'm Pope, but I want to keep my relationships with my friends in the past, and I want to continue this. That's why we had it again.

HH: And the other speaker, who would that have been?

JF: That was another Jesuit, actually, from Germany, a Father Christian Troll, who is an expert on Islam in Europe.

HH: And what were the natures of their presentations? That it is an ominous time for Christendom, because it simply cannot keep pace, either population or with zeal, compared to the reach of Islam?

JF: Let me divide my answer into two parts, and you can interrupt me at any time, because I realize it's your show. I'm taking all the time.

HH: Oh, no. I'm fascinated.

JF: But as background, I want to say without exaggeration, and without trying to become histrionic here, I see the trends...I've seen them for years, in Europe, of depopulation as you've mentioned. And their immigration is coming from the South, which is mainly Islamic. And there are, I think there are 98 Islamic countries in the world, and 97 of them do not have religious freedom. The only one that does is Mali, where Timbuktu is, you know. It's in a desert, so you can hardly count it. Sorry about any Malians who are listening to this program. And that's what's going to happen to Europe. Once there's an Islamic majority, it is going to not...it's going to eliminate religious freedom. However...and therefore, Western civilization as we know it. However, in the United States, we also are not having children. There's end. There's contraception. There's the ideal of a one or two child family. But where is our immigration coming from? From Ecuador, from Mexico, from Cuba, from Guatemala. And these people are Christians. And so, I believe without being...you know, having hubris as an American, I believe that Christians in the United States are the ones who will be able to save not just Christianity, but Western civilization, if we maintain our fidelity to the scriptures, our fidelity to Christ, our fidelity to family life, and our fidelity to fertility and fruitfulness in marriage. So I believe we are in a world historical century, which is going to depend upon the strength of Christianity in these United States. I say I think that's...I may raise my voice. I may get excited. I might waive a Bible or something like that, but I believe this is the hard facts, unless God...He could always...He's in charge. He could perform a miracle. He could do something we can't possibly have foreseen. But I see that as what's happening. Now, that's part one. The second part is shorter. The main presentation by this Father Troll was very interesting. He based it on a Pakistani Muslim scholar names Rashan, who was at the University of Chicago for many years, and Rashan's position was Islam can enter into dialogue with modernity, but only if it radically reinterprets the Koran, and takes the specific legislation of the Koran, like cutting off your hand if you're a thief, or being able to have four wives, or whatever, and takes the principles behind those specific pieces of legislation for the 7th Century of Arabia, and now applies them, and modifies them, for a new society which women are now respected for their full dignity, where democracy's important, religious freedom's important, and so on. And if Islam does that, then it will be able to enter into real dialogue and live together with other religions and other kinds of cultures.

HH: Is he an optimist about that happening?

JF: He is, but interesting, Hugh, you know, all the seminars I recall with Joseph Ratzinger, Father Ratzinger, he'd always let the students speak. He'd wait until the end, and he would intervene. This is the first time I recall where he made an immediate statement. And I'm still struck by it, how powerful it was.

HH: We only have thirty seconds, Father Fessio.

JF: Oh, I can't do it.

HH: Then I want to come back after the break.

JF: Okay. Hugh, we've got to come back to this after the break.

HH: That's the greatest bridge ever.

JF: That'll keep your listeners.

HH: You betcha. No one's going to go away. And here's what the Pope said...

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HH: Father Fessio, before the break, you were telling us that after the presentation at Castel Gandolfo by two scholars of Islam this summer with Benedict in attendance, as well as his former students, for the first time in your memory, the Pope did not allow his students to first comment and reserve comment, but in fact, went first. Why, and what did he say?

JF: Well, the thesis that was proposed by this scholar was that Islam can enter into the modern world if the Koran is reinterpreted by taking the specific legislation, and going back to the principles, and then adapting it to our times, especially with the dignity that we ascribe to women, which has come through Christianity, of course. And immediately, the Holy Father, in his beautiful calm but clear way, said well, there's a fundamental problem with that, because he said in the Islamic tradition, God has given His word to Mohammed, but it's an eternal word. It's not Mohammed's word. It's there for eternity the way it is. There's no possibility of adapting it or interpreting it, whereas in Christianity, and Judaism, the dynamism's completely different, that God has worked through His creatures. And so, it is not just the word of God, it's the word of Isaiah, not just the word of God, but the word of Mark. He's used His human creatures, and inspired them to speak His word to the world, and therefore by establishing a Church in which he gives authority to His followers to carry on the tradition and interpret it, there's an inner logic to the Christian Bible, which permits it and requires it to be adapted and applied to new situations. I was...I mean, Hugh, I wish I could say it as clearly and as beautifully as he did, but that's why he's Pope and I'm not, okay? That's one of the reasons. One of others, but his seeing that distinction when the Koran, which is seen as something dropped out of Heaven, which cannot be adapted or applied, even, and the Bible, which is a word of God that comes through a human community, it was stunning.

HH: And so, is it fair to describe him as a pessimist about the prospect of modernity truly engaging Islam in the way modernity has engaged Christianity?

JF: Well, the other way around.

HH: Yes. I meant that.

JF: Yeah, that Christianity can engage modernity just like it did...the Jews did Egypt, or Christians did to Greece, because we can take what's good there, and we can elevate it through the revelation of Christ in the Bible. But Islam is stuck. It's stuck with a text that cannot be adapted, or even be interpreted properly.

HH: And so the Pope is a pessimist about that changing, because it would require a radical reinterpretation of what the Koran is?

JF: Yeah, which is it's impossible, because it's against the very nature of the Koran, as it's understood by Muslims.

HH: And so, even the dialectic that was the Reformation is not possible within Islam?

JF: No. And then a second thing which he did not say, but which I would have said, I might have said at the time, is that...and this is from a Catholic point of view, there's no one to interpret the Koran officially. the Catholic Church has an official interpretor, which is the Holy Father with the bishops.

HH: Right. Well, let me ask you then. If, in fact, that reformation within Islam is not possible in the eyes of the Pope, and the demographics do not change, as they are unlikely to change in Europe, the last time Christendom went under the waves, so to speak, in Europe, there were the monasteries, beseiged as they were by the barbarians, sacked as they were by the Vikings, they endured.

JF: Yeah.

HH: That doesn't happen in modernity, because of the technology of oppression. And you've just noted the reluctance of Islam to accept religious pluralism, or to embrace it and celebrate it.

JF: Yes.

HH: And so what happens in Europe?

JF: Well, Hugh, I've got one of the very few things that I've said, which I'm proud of, because it's become kind of almost a slogan to some, is that home schools are the monasteries of the new dark ages. That is...and you non-Catholic Christians have a lot more of them than we Catholics do, but we've got a lot. And I think that is where families are having children. They're pbutting on the faith to their children. They're giving them wisdom and the knowledge of our culture. And we have an advantage here, because the homoloveuals, and the pro-endists, and the pro-contraception people, are not having children by definition.

HH: That's in the Steyn article as well.

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HH: Father Fessio, we're expecting the first encyclical from Benedict. We've seen him refer to the plight of Europe a couple of times, and to the West, generally. How do you, in practical terms, for the average listener whose out there driving home from work, stuck in traffic, translate the challenge for them? It's not just a theologian's debate. There's practical things that have to be done.

JF: Hugh, when you look at sacred scripture, and ask who changed the world and how they do it, there was a young Jewish girl, maybe 14, 15 years old, was taking care of the house, and betrothed to a guy named Joseph who was a carpenter. There's someone else who was doing his job, but at a tax collector's bench, you know, taking money from the people. There was a couple of other folks out on the lake fishing. They were doing what they thought they should do, waiting for the Messiah, open to the Lord's inspiration, and look what happened. The Angel Gabriel comes to Mary, says you're going to bear the son of God. She accepts that. Jesus comes across the lake and says follow Me. They follow Him. You don't, nor do I, have much control in this country, or the world, or even the city we live in. But we have control over our own hearts, and our own loves, and our own lives, and our families. And I think we just have to follow the Lord and wait on His call.